What a battle, these two both need to start every game for England. We need to get away from picking Jokers like Wilkin and JJB or putting loose forwards in to accomodate them. Both great players and the cream of SL in their position.

Don't tell Northampton Saint, he reckons Wilkin is better than Westwood. Wilkin wouldn't just have stood up to Hock last night; he would also have written something mean about him afterwards on his blog.

Well said, at last a bloke with good sense, again, well said Sir!

Agree with the original post. Putting aside my feelings about Gareth Hock - both should start for England.

Both unfashionable forwards rough tough and a throw back to when forwards were beasts love em

The difference though is that Westwood has now learned to channel his aggression into hard but legal play. Hock still turns into a caveman-thug when the match is going against him. Two examples: elbowing Westwood in the tackle ( which he got away with ) and chasing way out of the line in an attempt to flatten Briers, which just created the huge hole from which Hodgson set up Monaghan's try.

Play like that against the Aussies ( where, let's face it, the matches are usually going against England ) and Hock will be a cert for a red card.

NRL style players who would play well against Australia given the chance. I think Hock is a bit of a , but he's decent.

Good tussle between the two but by far the best encounter was Tomkins trying to square up to Hill. Hilly swats him away like a fly, then when they are about to scrum down, Ratboy walks over to Hilly and pats him on the shoulder and starts a laugh and a joke with him as if nothing happened. All mouth and no action, that lad.

Hock needs to learn to channel his aggression in a different way , rather than turn into a thug he needs to use that aggression into his play within the rules ! Westwood has changed his play in a similar way since smith came in , he was a penalty machine before that Hock could learn from this !
I do wonder though if Hock has the brain power to do this !

Working with someone like Smith would do wonders for Hocks game.

This. He could be a world class player, but he has the massive obstacle of being a total w*nker in the way and I fear he never will reach his potential for this very reason.

As a Saints fan, I completely agree. Both horrible people on the field but absolutely brilliant players and the best in their position for England by far.

Wilkin isn't a patch on either of them. Soliola is the closest we've got to that type of player at the moment but I don't think Manu is that far behind those two you've mentioned.